ThinList Blog: 2008-07-20

Saturday, July 26, 2008

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

I’d agree with that. It’s REALLY cool technology but if you spread your VM’s carefully across a VMware farm, much in the same way you would physical boxes, you could easily get by just fine if a VMware server went down (scheduled or not).

Not to mention, it’s a HUGE cost increase to get the extra VI3 features. Compared to the foundation bundle which is ESX, VCB, and VirtualCenter Agent, it’s 3x more to get vMotion HA and close to 6x more to get the full blown package which has vMotion, HA, DRS, and Storage vMotion. Then you need to add VirtualCenter Server on top of all that to even use vMotion/HA/DRS.

Those are some massive costs that would likely make VMware not available to fit into a lot of people’s budget, but the Foundation bundle is pretty darn cheap in and of itself, giving you the core product, and at rock bottom price. A price that is low enough that anyone could get VMware ESX into their environment, IMO.

From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Joe Shonk
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 12:04 PM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

I don’t understand why shared storage is a necessity for virtualizing Citrix. HA, vMotion and DRS are way oversold features that are nice to have but not necessary for virtualizing PS/XenApp.

Joe

From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Stalhood
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 1:49 PM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

Virtualizing Citrix usually means you have to pay for two new things that you didn't have to pay before: the virtualization layer (ESX) and shared storage. Does the server hardware savings make up for the additional cost of these other items? For non-Citrix servers the answer is normally "yes" since most are underutilized. Citrix servers are not underutilized so you probably won't get much savings from hardware consolidation.

Some people say: "we have already invested in VMware and the SAN and have excess capacity", thus not considering those costs. I think this is a fallacy since the costs will be paid eventually if you add anything else to the system and wish you had the extra capacity that is now being used by the Citrix servers.

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Merino, Ormond <Ormond_Merino@adp.com> wrote:

The balloon driver is actually called the 'Memory Control Driver', and
you can choose to not install it as part of the vmware tools. The
settings at the bottom are ESX host configuration settings, located in
'Advanced Settings' on the 'Configuration' tab of a host in Virtual
Center.

Hope this helps...ormond

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On

Behalf Of George Wasgatt
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:13 PM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

The tips at virtrix.blogspot.com refer to a memory ballooning driver in
VMWare tools that I can't seem to locate. I think that some of those
tips
are just a tad out of date.

And then there's this which is mostly a copy of the virtrix.blogspot
page
but with additional information at the bottom:

http://knmi.wordpress.com/best-practices-for-deploying-citrix-on-esx/

Now if I can just figure out what all that stuff at the bottom is...

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On
Behalf
Of msemon@ont.com
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 10:01 AM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

if you are virtualizing Citrix you are going to get less people on per
virtual machine. Count on about 30. Here is a link to some Citrix tips
on
VMware.

http://virtrix.blogspot.com/2007/03/vmware-best-practices-for-deploying.
html

Anyone else have some tips?

Mike

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Minero, Hector B CIV NSWCDD, K55 hector.minero@navy.mil
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:28:48 -0400
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Virtualizing Citrix

Hi all,
I see all these messages going back and forth about virtualization, but
not much information on how Citrix/TS behaves in a virtualized
environment.
A tech./sales person from Dell came yesterday and told me that I could
probably replace 7 of my PowerEdge 2850 with one beefed up PowerEdge
R900 and virtualize the 7 Citrix servers. I find that kind of hard to
believe.
Each of my 2850's can handle about 30 to 40 users concurrently. I just
don't think that an R900 could handle 200 + users with virtual Citrix
servers.

Is anyone out there using VMWare to virtualize Citrix servers in a
production environment?
What kind of hardware?
How many virtual servers per physical server?
How many users?

I would greatly appreciate your advice as I am new to VMWare.

_______________________________
Hector Minero
NSWCDD K55

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[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

throw a storage virtualization appliance on top of that like IBM's San Volume Controller and you could make some pretty cool stuff. mix that with ZFS and you could really scale out on the cheap. Not that an SVC is cheap but you see where I'm going here.

On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Steve Greenberg <steveg@thinclient.net> wrote:

Evan wrote……> the storage side doesn't have to be as expensive as it once was.

This is an excellent point, a sea change in storage is underway right now. I like DataCore SAN Melody software because you can take any Intel based Windows server and any type of storage and create an iSCSI and/or Fiber Channel SAN. It doesn't have to be expensive anymore, that is definitely true. However, it is still going to have a cost and involve some complexity

Joe wrote………> I don't understand why shared storage is a necessity for virtualizing Citrix. HA, vMotion and DRS are way oversold features that are nice to have but not necessary for virtualizing PS/XenApp

I wonder this all the time, many people have a large investment in SAN to allow VMotion type capabilities, but when is it really necessary? Don't people reboot servers as needed now? Isn't that what maintenance windows are for? I am not saying I don't see the value, I am just questioning how many environments really need it where it is worth the cost and complexity of the storage infrastructure behind it.

Steve Greenberg

Thin Client Computing

34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453

Scottsdale, AZ 85266

(602) 432-8649

www.thinclient.net

steveg@thinclient.net

From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Evan Mann
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 5:32 AM

To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

While there is no way to avoid the ESX costs themselves, the storage side doesn't have to be as expensive as it once was. Back in the day, you had to use a true SAN, but with full support for iSCSI in ESX, you do storage on the cheap. The cost savings on internal server storage from dedicated boxes can easily pay off the costs of a low-end iSCSI solution. If you want to wonder outside of the HCL for storage, you'll find that most any device that can give you some form of storage with an iSCSI or FC front end will work just dandy with ESX 3.5. I'm using 1^st gen Apple X-Serve RAID's which is nothing more then a RAID array with a FC front end. Works like a charm, but not on the HCL. I see VMware has added HP AiO's to the HCL. The AiO is just Windows Storage Server in an HP box with some HP tools. Given that, I don't see why a roll –your-own Windows Storage Server wouldn't work like a champ, giving some really interesting options to build your own storage.

From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Stalhood
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 4:49 PM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

Virtualizing Citrix usually means you have to pay for two new things that you didn't have to pay before: the virtualization layer (ESX) and shared storage. Does the server hardware savings make up for the additional cost of these other items? For non-Citrix servers the answer is normally "yes" since most are underutilized. Citrix servers are not underutilized so you probably won't get much savings from hardware consolidation.

Some people say: "we have already invested in VMware and the SAN and have excess capacity", thus not considering those costs. I think this is a fallacy since the costs will be paid eventually if you add anything else to the system and wish you had the extra capacity that is now being used by the Citrix servers.

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Merino, Ormond <Ormond_Merino@adp.com> wrote:

The balloon driver is actually called the 'Memory Control Driver', and
you can choose to not install it as part of the vmware tools. The
settings at the bottom are ESX host configuration settings, located in
'Advanced Settings' on the 'Configuration' tab of a host in Virtual
Center.

Hope this helps...ormond

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On

Behalf Of George Wasgatt
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:13 PM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

The tips at virtrix.blogspot.com refer to a memory ballooning driver in
VMWare tools that I can't seem to locate. I think that some of those
tips
are just a tad out of date.

And then there's this which is mostly a copy of the virtrix.blogspot
page
but with additional information at the bottom:

http://knmi.wordpress.com/best-practices-for-deploying-citrix-on-esx/

Now if I can just figure out what all that stuff at the bottom is...

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On
Behalf
Of msemon@ont.com
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 10:01 AM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

if you are virtualizing Citrix you are going to get less people on per
virtual machine. Count on about 30. Here is a link to some Citrix tips
on
VMware.

http://virtrix.blogspot.com/2007/03/vmware-best-practices-for-deploying.
html

Anyone else have some tips?

Mike

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Minero, Hector B CIV NSWCDD, K55 hector.minero@navy.mil
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:28:48 -0400
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Virtualizing Citrix

Hi all,
I see all these messages going back and forth about virtualization, but
not much information on how Citrix/TS behaves in a virtualized
environment.
A tech./sales person from Dell came yesterday and told me that I could
probably replace 7 of my PowerEdge 2850 with one beefed up PowerEdge
R900 and virtualize the 7 Citrix servers. I find that kind of hard to
believe.
Each of my 2850's can handle about 30 to 40 users concurrently. I just
don't think that an R900 could handle 200 + users with virtual Citrix
servers.

Is anyone out there using VMWare to virtualize Citrix servers in a
production environment?
What kind of hardware?
How many virtual servers per physical server?
How many users?

I would greatly appreciate your advice as I am new to VMWare.

_______________________________
Hector Minero
NSWCDD K55

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Thinlist quick pick
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-----------------------------------------
This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of
the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and
confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended
recipient or an authorized representative of the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, notify the sender immediately by return
email and delete the message and any attachments from your system.

************************************************
For Archives, RSS, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or
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************************************************

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

Evan wrote……> the storage side doesn’t have to be as expensive as it once was.

This is an excellent point, a sea change in storage is underway right now. I like DataCore SAN Melody software because you can take any Intel based Windows server and any type of storage and create an iSCSI and/or Fiber Channel SAN. It doesn’t have to be expensive anymore, that is definitely true. However, it is still going to have a cost and involve some complexity

Joe wrote………> I don’t understand why shared storage is a necessity for virtualizing Citrix. HA, vMotion and DRS are way oversold features that are nice to have but not necessary for virtualizing PS/XenApp

I wonder this all the time, many people have a large investment in SAN to allow VMotion type capabilities, but when is it really necessary? Don’t people reboot servers as needed now? Isn’t that what maintenance windows are for? I am not saying I don’t see the value, I am just questioning how many environments really need it where it is worth the cost and complexity of the storage infrastructure behind it.

Steve Greenberg

Thin Client Computing

34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453

Scottsdale, AZ 85266

(602) 432-8649

www.thinclient.net

steveg@thinclient.net

From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Evan Mann
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 5:32 AM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

While there is no way to avoid the ESX costs themselves, the storage side doesn’t have to be as expensive as it once was. Back in the day, you had to use a true SAN, but with full support for iSCSI in ESX, you do storage on the cheap. The cost savings on internal server storage from dedicated boxes can easily pay off the costs of a low-end iSCSI solution. If you want to wonder outside of the HCL for storage, you’ll find that most any device that can give you some form of storage with an iSCSI or FC front end will work just dandy with ESX 3.5. I’m using 1^st gen Apple X-Serve RAID’s which is nothing more then a RAID array with a FC front end. Works like a charm, but not on the HCL. I see VMware has added HP AiO’s to the HCL. The AiO is just Windows Storage Server in an HP box with some HP tools. Given that, I don’t see why a roll –your-own Windows Storage Server wouldn’t work like a champ, giving some really interesting options to build your own storage.

From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Carl Stalhood
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 4:49 PM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Merino, Ormond <Ormond_Merino@adp.com> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

I don’t understand why shared storage is a necessity for virtualizing Citrix. HA, vMotion and DRS are way oversold features that are nice to have but not necessary for virtualizing PS/XenApp.

Joe

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Merino, Ormond <Ormond_Merino@adp.com> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Merino, Ormond <Ormond_Merino@adp.com> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On

Friday, July 25, 2008

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

Very true...PVS (and other thin provisioning solutions) are gonna turn the computing world on its side. Citrix had better start evangelizing PVS much more before other vendors catch up. And they will, quickly.

From: thin-bounce@freelists.org
To: thin@freelists.org
Sent: Fri Jul 25 17:36:47 2008
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

This is an excellent point and this is exactly why Provisioning Server is such a strong play, it is just taking a while to penetrate into the market place, it allows you to bypass the expensive SAN storage requirements for PS servers running virtually

Steve Greenberg

Thin Client Computing

34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453

Scottsdale, AZ 85266

(602) 432-8649

www.thinclient.net

steveg@thinclient.net

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Merino, Ormond <Ormond_Merino@adp.com> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

Steve Greenberg

Thin Client Computing

34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453

Scottsdale, AZ 85266

(602) 432-8649

www.thinclient.net

steveg@thinclient.net

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Merino, Ormond <Ormond_Merino@adp.com> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Merino, Ormond <Ormond_Merino@adp.com> wrote:

The balloon driver is actually called the 'Memory Control Driver', and
you can choose to not install it as part of the vmware tools. The
settings at the bottom are ESX host configuration settings, located in
'Advanced Settings' on the 'Configuration' tab of a host in Virtual
Center.

Hope this helps...ormond

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On

Behalf Of George Wasgatt
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:13 PM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

The tips at virtrix.blogspot.com refer to a memory ballooning driver in
VMWare tools that I can't seem to locate. I think that some of those
tips
are just a tad out of date.

And then there's this which is mostly a copy of the virtrix.blogspot
page
but with additional information at the bottom:

http://knmi.wordpress.com/best-practices-for-deploying-citrix-on-esx/

Now if I can just figure out what all that stuff at the bottom is...

-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:thin-bounce@freelists.org] On
Behalf
Of msemon@ont.com
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 10:01 AM
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

if you are virtualizing Citrix you are going to get less people on per
virtual machine. Count on about 30. Here is a link to some Citrix tips
on
VMware.

http://virtrix.blogspot.com/2007/03/vmware-best-practices-for-deploying.
html

Anyone else have some tips?

Mike

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Minero, Hector B CIV NSWCDD, K55 hector.minero@navy.mil
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:28:48 -0400
To: thin@freelists.org
Subject: [THIN] Virtualizing Citrix

Hi all,
I see all these messages going back and forth about virtualization, but
not much information on how Citrix/TS behaves in a virtualized
environment.
A tech./sales person from Dell came yesterday and told me that I could
probably replace 7 of my PowerEdge 2850 with one beefed up PowerEdge
R900 and virtualize the 7 Citrix servers. I find that kind of hard to
believe.
Each of my 2850's can handle about 30 to 40 users concurrently. I just
don't think that an R900 could handle 200 + users with virtual Citrix
servers.

Is anyone out there using VMWare to virtualize Citrix servers in a
production environment?
What kind of hardware?
How many virtual servers per physical server?
How many users?

I would greatly appreciate your advice as I am new to VMWare.

_______________________________
Hector Minero
NSWCDD K55

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://thinlist.net
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************************************************
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NEW! Follow Thin List on Twitter!
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HOT! Thinlist MOBILE Feed!
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Thinlist quick pick
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************************************************

-----------------------------------------
This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of
the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and
confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended
recipient or an authorized representative of the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, notify the sender immediately by return
email and delete the message and any attachments from your system.

************************************************
For Archives, RSS, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or
set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link:
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NEW! Follow Thin List on Twitter!
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************************************************

ThinList Blog

Saturday, July 26, 2008

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

Friday, July 25, 2008

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

[THIN] Re: Virtualizing Citrix

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